3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

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Kill Mick
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby Kill Mick » 17 Dec 2014 22:51

bobbydriver wrote:So back to the boxset - anyone else notice that the credits for the Mono mix do still infer that it was created at the time as a promo mix.

The concensus on the forum here suggests that is BS and it's a 21st century fold-down.

Did Alfredo or anyone else ever get a definitive answer of it's true provenance?

You're right to raise that, it's an interesting point. I've been one of the most critical of the Mono mix because I thought it was a new(ish) fold-down as you say, but you're right in saying the box set credits it as released in March 1969 as MGM E4617 (as does the Sundazed box set). MGM did release promo mono versions of a number of their albums as E-XXXX around that time - maybe this was actually a genuine release? Has anyone ever seen a copy?!
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DavidH
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby DavidH » 17 Dec 2014 23:32

Kill Mick wrote:
bobbydriver wrote:So back to the boxset - anyone else notice that the credits for the Mono mix do still infer that it was created at the time as a promo mix.

The concensus on the forum here suggests that is BS and it's a 21st century fold-down.

Did Alfredo or anyone else ever get a definitive answer of it's true provenance?

You're right to raise that, it's an interesting point. I've been one of the most critical of the Mono mix because I thought it was a new(ish) fold-down as you say, but you're right in saying the box set credits it as released in March 1969 as MGM E4617 (as does the Sundazed box set). MGM did release promo mono versions of a number of their albums as E-XXXX around that time - maybe this was actually a genuine release? Has anyone ever seen a copy?!


I've never even heard anybody talk about a rumour of this existing before the Sundazed box set. It's possible that there was a mix made at the time - which for most records that late in the game was I believe essentially a fold down/fake mono version - but it would be the rarest VU record in existence if it was actually out there.

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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby MJG196 » 18 Dec 2014 04:40

bobbydriver wrote:So back to the boxset - anyone else notice that the credits for the Mono mix do still infer that it was created at the time as a promo mix.


You infer. The credits imply.

Sorry. My inner editor couldn't let it go!
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upsetter
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby upsetter » 18 Dec 2014 09:37

My feeling is that it was prepared but not issued. According to this http://www.bsnpubs.com/mgm/mgm46014800.html MGM discography, The Velvet Underground was the first MGM album to only be issued in stereo. So there may have been a mono mix prepared?

Kill Mick
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby Kill Mick » 18 Dec 2014 10:40

MJG196 wrote:
bobbydriver wrote:So back to the boxset - anyone else notice that the credits for the Mono mix do still infer that it was created at the time as a promo mix.


You infer. The credits imply.

Sorry. My inner editor couldn't let it go!

The pedants are revolting! Actually, if we are being really accurate, the credits don't imply, they state it as a matter of fact.

I suspect Upsetter is correct and a mono mix was prepared at the time (after all, they did one for Loaded 18 months later) but never issued. Maybe it got as fas as a test pressing (now that would be a rarity!)? Thinking about it, are the 4 tracks from the 3rd album that exist on acetate mono or stereo versions?
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3rd Album Deluxe orign of sister ray from disk 6

Postby Waldo1970 » 18 Dec 2014 16:58

Dear VU friends,

according to information on many web pages it is claimed that the Sister Ray of disk 6 (November 26 + 27, 1969) is a different source mix of a performance which did appear on the quine tapes already

I cannot follow this, as the three sister Ray's of the 3 cd quine tapes box set are clearly dated as follows:
SR of QT disk 1 -- November 7, 1969
SR of QT disk 2 -- Dezember 3, 1969
SR of QT disk 3 -- May 5, 1969

How can it be that the 3rd Album Deluxe sister ray of disk 6 is shall be from QT performances ??

Any explanation on this ?

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lurid
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby lurid » 19 Dec 2014 00:28

that sounds very plausible to me. If you look at the tape boxes depicted in the Super Deluxe edition it seems that the Valentin mix was finished 23rd January 1969 and Lou's mix (oddly) finished earlier on 20 December 1968. A contemporary mono mix would probably have been prepared as a matter of course and it would presumably have been on or by 20 December (since the mono mix is credited to both Reed and Valentin). I can imagine a different part of the MGM machine then independently deciding to halt mono releases sometime between January and early March, when the 3rd Lp was officially released. The mono mix would have been put on the shelf and left to gather dust (obsolete technology....). A photo of the original tape box might explain a lot!

But the use of the E4617 catalogue number and the information in the MGM discography is very persuasive for me. The only other interpretation would be that it is a deliberate attempt at deception by UMG, and that doesn't seem plausible to me at all. And I don't see any inference or implication - "...was released March 1969" is a statement of fact!

upsetter wrote:My feeling is that it was prepared but not issued. According to this http://www.bsnpubs.com/mgm/mgm46014800.html MGM discography, The Velvet Underground was the first MGM album to only be issued in stereo. So there may have been a mono mix prepared?

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iaredatsun
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby iaredatsun » 19 Dec 2014 11:11

lurid wrote:that sounds very plausible to me. If you look at the tape boxes depicted in the Super Deluxe edition it seems that the Valentin mix was finished 23rd January 1969 and Lou's mix (oddly) finished earlier on 20 December 1968. A contemporary mono mix would probably have been prepared as a matter of course and it would presumably have been on or by 20 December (since the mono mix is credited to both Reed and Valentin). I can imagine a different part of the MGM machine then independently deciding to halt mono releases sometime between January and early March, when the 3rd Lp was officially released. The mono mix would have been put on the shelf and left to gather dust (obsolete technology....). A photo of the original tape box might explain a lot!


Interesting about the mixing dates. I always thought that Lou Reed went back and remixed the album after Valentin's version. Does that mean they were not happy with Reed's mix? And it makes it strange that they then used Reed's mix for the release. (Actually, I'm a bit unclear on whether the Valentin was ever used in the US.)

The first and second tape boxes have track times that do not show differences between the two mixes. The first box says mixed by Reed/Valentin. The second box says nothing. Is it really clear which is Closet and which is Valentin? Do we know that Reed was not present during the Valentin mix?

The lack of photo of the mono box kind of suggests they no longer had the mix. That and perhaps the stereo glitch at the end of Candy Says.
Last edited by iaredatsun on 19 Dec 2014 12:59, edited 3 times in total.
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bobbydriver
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby bobbydriver » 19 Dec 2014 11:40

So I was curious as to the differences between the mono album mix of Jesus and the mono single version of Jesus. The single version of What Goes On is obviously a faded edit but Jesus is roughly the same length.

I experimented in a wave editor - put the mono album mix in the right channel and the mono single version in the left channel and started them at the same time.

They start off perfectly in sync and sound identical, but over the course of the song, the single version speeds up gradually until it ends a full second sooner than the album mix.

Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the single edit was truly playing faster then it would be pitched slightly higher - and it isn't. Which I assume means that the speed difference has been digitally introduced and they've retained the original pitch.

Not sure what this proves - but I thought I'd mention it, as I went to the bother of doing it!

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iaredatsun
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Re: 3rd Album Deluxe - Bill Levenson drops a hint?

Postby iaredatsun » 19 Dec 2014 11:52

The liner notes seem to be certain that the mono was released.

bottom of of p64 - MGM E 4617 was released March 1969

but then at the top of p60 it has the Valentin mix originally released as E/SE 4617, which implies that the mono was the Valentin but we know it wasn't.

Seems confused.
Last edited by iaredatsun on 19 Dec 2014 20:17, edited 2 times in total.
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