Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

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rnranimal
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by rnranimal » 17 Nov 2015 06:17

leamanc wrote:rnranimal, I can't really argue any of your points, if that's the way you want to look at it. But as a response to a few things:

The Columbus show sounds better to me than If It's Too Loud For You..., although I only have the latter as a FLAC rip. A FLAC rip should sound as good as the CD, but the whole show sounds "muddier" to me there, in comparison to the 45th VU&Nico set. If they are one and the same, then what is wrong with making the best version available to the masses? As is the case with many bootlegs, even big fans of the band don't have them all. I personally never had any of the material from the Warhol museum CD. I had never heard "Miss Joanie Lee" at all before this set came out, and I have quite a few VU bootlegs, both downloaded and physical copies.

Yes, it is sketchy that the 3rd album mono is presented as being contemporary to the album's original release. As I mentioned, the only other mono source was the 2012 Sundazed vinyl box set. I vinyl-ripped it at the time, as did quite a few others, and a lot of us enjoyed it. Regardless of its origins, it's nice to have. And I have to think that by 1968/early 1969, most mono issues were fold-downs. It seemed to be the trend in the music business at that time, as bands started recording with stereo in mind, instead of recording in mono and having an engineer rig up a stereo mix later on. The mono Loaded promo is most certainly a fold-down also. If a mono version of the 3rd album actually was prepared in 1969, it likely would have been done the same way.

You point out a few things you did like in the interest of not being negative all the time. So thinking along those lines, what would you have wanted to see instead? A cleaned-up "Sweet Sister Ray" tops my list. Leaving out this song seems to be THE big wasted opportunity in collecting all this Velvets material. Also, there are a few other "alternate Closet Mix" tracks that could have been included; I would have liked those tacked on to the Closet Mix disc of the set too.
Yes, FLAC if not converted from MP3, should sound the same as the CD. Are you comparing a rip from an original Too Loud bootleg? Because there was a "remastered" one done a few years ago. I haven't heard that one, but it's just going to be someone's reworking of the original. Presenting the best copy available would've been fine, but they didn't. The guy who owns the master tape is still around and not hard to get a hold of. Someone from this forum contacted him and asked if he was contacted about having the tape used for the set. He said he was not. So they didn't present the best quality available, they presented the best copy that was easy to grab. I'll go back and re-compare the 45th and Too Loud boot, but even if they did eq the sound to be more pleasing to some ears, there are inherent issues in the Too Loud boot which could've been avoided with a new fresh transfer. With the tape still available, it should've never even been a consideration to use the bootleg without attempting to secure the tape. It wasn't a secret who has the tape.

Things I would've liked to see...

The "Sweet Sister Ray" omission is odd. Especially since they came up 3 discs short on WL/WH and still charged full price. Seemed like a given.

There are other alternate closet mixes? If so, then yes, that's a shame they didn't include them. There's the 4 song acetate with different mixes, including a "Beginning to See the Light" which didn't fade out. There was also talk in the past that session tapes survive from this album - different takes and mixes, but aside from the alternate closet mix track, we got none of that.

Including the radio ad for the 3rd album seems like that should've been a very obvious choice, but it's not there. Not a big deal, but how do you leave that off?

I think the whole Warhol disc should've appeared in the Nico set. The whole thing is already out on boot in comparable quality, but this would've been great to have it all from the better source.

The 4 song 1969 acetate. The demos that were on the Peel WL/WH disc (including the 2 takes left off Peel). The La Cave show for the 3rd album instead of the Matrix tracks that would be soon made obsolete. The Max's Freeman tape, but maybe they just couldn't get that. I'd have liked them to track down the Scepter acetate instead of just using a bootleg, but maybe that wasn't possible either.

The previously released Max's show should've never been in the Loaded set, but if it must be, then it should've been complete and speed corrected.

There should've been DVDs with the first two. But again, if the Warhol people won't let them, then they can't do anything about that. I just wonder how many of these things were even looked into.

Of course, anything we don't already have. Surely, there was more. It's hard to put together a list without knowing what they actually had available to them. So I stick to complaining about what I'm sure of. Things like leaving off stuff we know they have and things which were on previous releases and I just really have a problem with a lot of the decisions made (or oversights, whichever they were). Also, the main album remasterings started off great with the first set and slowly went downhill.

Kill Mick
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by Kill Mick » 17 Nov 2015 08:27

rnranimal wrote:Yes, FLAC if not converted from MP3, should sound the same as the CD. Are you comparing a rip from an original Too Loud bootleg? Because there was a "remastered" one done a few years ago. I haven't heard that one, but it's just going to be someone's reworking of the original. Presenting the best copy available would've been fine, but they didn't. The guy who owns the master tape is still around and not hard to get a hold of. Someone from this forum contacted him and asked if he was contacted about having the tape used for the set. He said he was not. So they didn't present the best quality available, they presented the best copy that was easy to grab. I'll go back and re-compare the 45th and Too Loud boot, but even if they did eq the sound to be more pleasing to some ears, there are inherent issues in the Too Loud boot which could've been avoided with a new fresh transfer. With the tape still available, it should've never even been a consideration to use the bootleg without attempting to secure the tape. It wasn't a secret who has the tape.
Don't forget Melody Laughter on Too Loud and the 45th Box also has about 2 mins of music edited out. That may not seem much in a 30 odd min track, but for me incomplete is incomplete and therefore inferior.
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rnranimal
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by rnranimal » 17 Nov 2015 19:28

Kill Mick wrote:[Don't forget Melody Laughter on Too Loud and the 45th Box also has about 2 mins of music edited out. That may not seem much in a 30 odd min track, but for me incomplete is incomplete and therefore inferior.
Agreed. They even made further edits to the 45th version, but it might just have been to remove between song stuff. Still, it made no sense. The removing of basically every second of between song content on the Gym tracks from the WL/WH set really pissed me off. There was zero (good) reason to do that.

bobbydriver
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by bobbydriver » 18 Nov 2015 12:12

Jokes about Squeeze aside, is this it for "new" VU releases then? Is this truly the bottom of the proverbial barrel?

The stuff people are listing that wasn't included in the 45th boxes all sounds good, but unlikely to make up a release on it's own merit.

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iaredatsun
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by iaredatsun » 18 Nov 2015 18:48

bobbydriver wrote:Jokes about Squeeze aside, is this it for "new" VU releases then? Is this truly the bottom of the proverbial barrel?

The stuff people are listing that wasn't included in the 45th boxes all sounds good, but unlikely to make up a release on it's own merit.
We can only hope for a box of tapes to emerge from John Cale now that there is no Lou reason not to. It will probably be called The John Cale Years, or John Cale's Violent Vintage Shoebox.

In it we will have the 'stolen' Quicksilver Messenger Service gig tape (my fantasy has John Cale accidentally putting the tape in his bag that night), the rest of the Gymnasium Shows, The Upbeat TV show(s), and all the stuff Conrad gave back to Cale like the Falling Spikes practice.

Then Laurie Anderson will release all the tapes in Lou's cupboard and we will get the missing version of Sister Ray (the whole Sweet Sister Ray gig - again my fantasy is that Lou copied it before Sister Ray was erased) and the 'other' demos that apparently they sent to the UK and were supposedly not the ones on PSAS. And the contents of that unopened tape parcel. This set will be called The Lou Reed Years or simply We're Coming Out Of Lou Reed's Closet.
underground, overground

leamanc
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by leamanc » 18 Nov 2015 19:27

Yes, FLAC if not converted from MP3, should sound the same as the CD. Are you comparing a rip from an original Too Loud bootleg?
Simon, the version I am comparing to is a FLAC of the "remastered" version, with the cover that looks like it is a MFSL release. It's always possible that it was a CD->MP3->FLAC, but knowing the source I assumed it was a direct CD->FLAC rip.

I didn't know that the creator of that tape is still around. Didn't he put out the "original" 1966 bootleg (with "Melody Laughter" and "Nothing Song") by himself in 1981? That LP, while much appreciated, doesn't sound so great either, so I wonder how much sonic improvement can really be milked out of that recording.

There are other alternate Closet Mixes available. I have a CD that is a vinyl rip of an original 1969 promo that contains this supposed "alternate Closet Mix." Apparently this promo's label is a different color than most of the promos known to exist. Best I could tell from listening very closely, there were four songs that were significantly different than the "regular" Closet Mix. It's been a couple years since I've listened to it, but IIRC, the other tracks exhibiting noticeable differences (other than "Beginning to See the Light") were "Candy Says," "What Goes On" and "Jesus." Erm, actually maybe the fourth one is "Murder Mystery."

It's hard to remember, because the differences are rather subtle, and I never gave this CD much of a listen. I bought it on eBay, and it arrived as a CD-R scratched so badly that I even had trouble ripping it. I think even the FLAC rips I have around somewhere have skips in "Candy Says."

rnranimal
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by rnranimal » 18 Nov 2015 19:50

leamanc wrote:
Yes, FLAC if not converted from MP3, should sound the same as the CD. Are you comparing a rip from an original Too Loud bootleg?
Simon, the version I am comparing to is a FLAC of the "remastered" version, with the cover that looks like it is a MFSL release. It's always possible that it was a CD->MP3->FLAC, but knowing the source I assumed it was a direct CD->FLAC rip.

I didn't know that the creator of that tape is still around. Didn't he put out the "original" 1966 bootleg (with "Melody Laughter" and "Nothing Song") by himself in 1981? That LP, while much appreciated, doesn't sound so great either, so I wonder how much sonic improvement can really be milked out of that recording.

There are other alternate Closet Mixes available. I have a CD that is a vinyl rip of an original 1969 promo that contains this supposed "alternate Closet Mix." Apparently this promo's label is a different color than most of the promos known to exist. Best I could tell from listening very closely, there were four songs that were significantly different than the "regular" Closet Mix. It's been a couple years since I've listened to it, but IIRC, the other tracks exhibiting noticeable differences (other than "Beginning to See the Light") were "Candy Says," "What Goes On" and "Jesus." Erm, actually maybe the fourth one is "Murder Mystery."

It's hard to remember, because the differences are rather subtle, and I never gave this CD much of a listen. I bought it on eBay, and it arrived as a CD-R scratched so badly that I even had trouble ripping it. I think even the FLAC rips I have around somewhere have skips in "Candy Says."
The "MFSL" remaster is just someone who took the original and futzed with it. The 45th box would've used the original bootleg as the source, so I think the difference you are hearing is what was done to the "remastered' one. There is very little difference between the original boot and 45th set.

The guy who recorded the show died, but the tape is now with someone else. There's a good thread around here somewhere which includes his explanation of the history of the tape and releases. Basically, only copies were used up until the "Too Loud" bootleg. That came from the master, but as I said, there are some issues with it that could've been avoided with a new transfer. A new transfer could've certainly yielded a better result. It at least should've been looked into. The common 15 year old bootleg CD is not what we should've been sold.

The only promo I know of is said to have a noticeably different mastering from the final release, but am not aware of a promo with different mixes.

This one:

white label
MGM SE-4617, 1969
White label promo

Side 1: SE 4617 side 1 MGS 1824 rev sp
Side 2: SE 4617 S-2 MGS-1825 SPECIAL REV

DJ sticker on cover.
MGM inner sleeve.
White label "NOT FOR SALE" with ASCAP publishing credits.
offers Lou's closet mix, but a different mastering, a dryer sound than the yellow label promo or any of the stock issues.

leamanc
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by leamanc » 19 Nov 2015 23:07

rnranimal wrote: The only promo I know of is said to have a noticeably different mastering from the final release, but am not aware of a promo with different mixes.

This one:

white label
MGM SE-4617, 1969
White label promo

Side 1: SE 4617 side 1 MGS 1824 rev sp
Side 2: SE 4617 S-2 MGS-1825 SPECIAL REV

DJ sticker on cover.
MGM inner sleeve.
White label "NOT FOR SALE" with ASCAP publishing credits.
offers Lou's closet mix, but a different mastering, a dryer sound than the yellow label promo or any of the stock issues.
I dug up the bootleg CD I got from eBay. It is a 4-disc set called "Ultimate Stereo Album," and bills itself as "4CD set, the rare mixes collection of the Velvet Underground." For the alternate closet mix, it says in the liner notes (typos faithfully transcribed):

Tracks taken from ultra rare MGM special rec 3rd album. This is include same version of MGM SE-4617, 1969 white label promo. This is not closet mix and Val Valentin mix both. This is Lou Reed's Alternate closet different mix.And this master disc is higher quality than white label. Not avairable on any other format until now!!

rnranimal
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by rnranimal » 19 Nov 2015 23:37

leamanc wrote:
rnranimal wrote: The only promo I know of is said to have a noticeably different mastering from the final release, but am not aware of a promo with different mixes.

This one:

white label
MGM SE-4617, 1969
White label promo

Side 1: SE 4617 side 1 MGS 1824 rev sp
Side 2: SE 4617 S-2 MGS-1825 SPECIAL REV

DJ sticker on cover.
MGM inner sleeve.
White label "NOT FOR SALE" with ASCAP publishing credits.
offers Lou's closet mix, but a different mastering, a dryer sound than the yellow label promo or any of the stock issues.
I dug up the bootleg CD I got from eBay. It is a 4-disc set called "Ultimate Stereo Album," and bills itself as "4CD set, the rare mixes collection of the Velvet Underground." For the alternate closet mix, it says in the liner notes (typos faithfully transcribed):

Tracks taken from ultra rare MGM special rec 3rd album. This is include same version of MGM SE-4617, 1969 white label promo. This is not closet mix and Val Valentin mix both. This is Lou Reed's Alternate closet different mix.And this master disc is higher quality than white label. Not avairable on any other format until now!!
That's just a different sounding mastering for the promo, no different mixes. I think the channels are reversed on that CD, which might make it sound different when comparing to another closet mix source. That set lists a number of things as different mixes which aren't.

Andre83
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Re: Loaded 45th Anniversary box reactions thread

Post by Andre83 » 20 Nov 2015 14:59

I bought the box set of the boston tea party . 4 cds, decent sound quality and some nice piece . My question is. Is there something out there? Something with Cale ? Does anyone know? Maybe the San diego tape? Where is the final piece of sweet sister Ray ? The tapes of the Gymnasium were released all ? I do not think. It is possible that there is a video recording of even a few minutes where you see the vu that play music ?
It's frustrating and beautiful to be a fan of vu

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