VU Masters?

[iaredatsun]

The Verve fire occurred separately from the UMG one, and nothing in the vaults survived. It also happened very recently. Unless Cale got a hold of the multitracks (which he very well might have), they were without a doubt destroyed. Part of the tragedy of this loss (if it happened) is that there were two songs recorded during the VU & Nico sessions that were never released (their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten).

These twelve songs (with their locations, if available) are:

1. Waiting for the Man (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
2. Femme Fatale (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
3. Venus in Furs (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
4. Run Run Run (Scepter take located on Norman Dolph Acetate, and album version likely also recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
5. All Tommorrow’s Parties (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
6. Heroin ((Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
7. There She Goes Again (album version likely recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
8. I’ll Be Your Mirror (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
9. The Black Angel’s Death Song (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
10. European Son (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
11. Get It On Time(?)
12. Unknown (Possibly “I’ll Keep it with Mine,” or maybe even the album version of “Run Run Run” (although it’s highly unlikely that they’d give the label multiple recordings of the same song))

How likely is it that they'd give the multitracks to Cale? And if so where did you get this information or idea?

[Kill Mick]

The Norm Dolph and album versions of Run Run Run are one and the same recording aren't they, just different mixes? The same as, for example, Black Angel. Why would they be classed as 2 different tracks out of the 12?

[Haight Trashbury]

The Norm Dolph and album versions of Run Run Run are one and the same recording aren't they, just different mixes? The same as, for example, Black Angel. Why would they be classed as 2 different tracks out of the 12?

On second glance, they are. Will correct.

[Haight Trashbury]

The Verve fire occurred separately from the UMG one, and nothing in the vaults survived. It also happened very recently. Unless Cale got a hold of the multitracks (which he very well might have), they were without a doubt destroyed. Part of the tragedy of this loss (if it happened) is that there were two songs recorded during the VU & Nico sessions that were never released (their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten).

These twelve songs (with their locations, if available) are:

1. Waiting for the Man (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
2. Femme Fatale (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
3. Venus in Furs (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
4. Run Run Run (Scepter take located on Norman Dolph Acetate, and album version likely also recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
5. All Tommorrow’s Parties (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
6. Heroin ((Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
7. There She Goes Again (album version likely recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
8. I’ll Be Your Mirror (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
9. The Black Angel’s Death Song (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
10. European Son (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
11. Get It On Time(?)
12. Unknown (Possibly “I’ll Keep it with Mine,” or maybe even the album version of “Run Run Run” (although it’s highly unlikely that they’d give the label multiple recordings of the same song))

Correction:

The Verve fire occurred separately from the UMG one, and nothing in the vaults survived. It also happened very recently. Unless Cale got a hold of the multitracks (which he very well might have), they were without a doubt destroyed. Part of the tragedy of this loss (if it happened) is that there were two songs recorded during the VU & Nico sessions that were never released (their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten).

These twelve songs (with their locations, if available) are:

1. Waiting for the Man (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
2. Femme Fatale (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
3. Venus in Furs (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
4. Run Run Run (Scepter take used on final album)
5. All Tommorrow’s Parties (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
6. Heroin ((Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
7. There She Goes Again (album version likely recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
8. I’ll Be Your Mirror (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
9. The Black Angel’s Death Song (Scepter Take Used on final album)
10. European Son (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
11. Get It On Time(?)
12. Unknown (Possibly “I’ll Keep it with Mine”)

[Haight Trashbury]

The Verve fire occurred separately from the UMG one, and nothing in the vaults survived. It also happened very recently. Unless Cale got a hold of the multitracks (which he very well might have), they were without a doubt destroyed. Part of the tragedy of this loss (if it happened) is that there were two songs recorded during the VU & Nico sessions that were never released (their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten).

These twelve songs (with their locations, if available) are:

1. Waiting for the Man (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
2. Femme Fatale (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
3. Venus in Furs (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
4. Run Run Run (Scepter take located on Norman Dolph Acetate, and album version likely also recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
5. All Tommorrow’s Parties (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
6. Heroin ((Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
7. There She Goes Again (album version likely recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
8. I’ll Be Your Mirror (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
9. The Black Angel’s Death Song (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
10. European Son (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
11. Get It On Time(?)
12. Unknown (Possibly “I’ll Keep it with Mine,” or maybe even the album version of “Run Run Run” (although it’s highly unlikely that they’d give the label multiple recordings of the same song))

Correction:

The Verve fire occurred separately from the UMG one, and nothing in the vaults survived. It also happened very recently. Unless Cale got a hold of the multitracks (which he very well might have), they were without a doubt destroyed. Part of the tragedy of this loss (if it happened) is that there were two songs recorded during the VU & Nico sessions that were never released (their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten).

These twelve songs (with their locations, if available) are:

1. Waiting for the Man (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
2. Femme Fatale (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
3. Venus in Furs (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
4. Run Run Run (Scepter take used on final album)
5. All Tommorrow’s Parties (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
6. Heroin ((Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
7. There She Goes Again (album version likely recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
8. I’ll Be Your Mirror (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
9. The Black Angel’s Death Song (Scepter Take Used on final album)
10. European Son (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
11. Get It On Time(?)
12. Unknown (Possibly “I’ll Keep it with Mine”)

Correction 2 (I accidentally hit the “Submit” button before I finished the first correction because I’m stupid):

The Verve fire occurred separately from the UMG one, and nothing in the vaults survived. It also happened very recently. Unless Cale got a hold of the multitracks (which he very well might have), they were without a doubt destroyed. Part of the tragedy of this loss (if it happened) is that there were two songs recorded during the VU & Nico sessions that were never released (their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten).

These twelve songs (with their locations, if available) are:

1. Waiting for the Man (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
2. Femme Fatale (Scepter take used on final album)
3. Venus in Furs (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
4. Run Run Run (Scepter take used on final album)
5. All Tommorrow’s Parties (Scepter take used on final album)
6. Heroin (Scepter Take located on Norman Dolph Acetate)
7. There She Goes Again (album version likely recorded at Scepter judging by tape sound)
8. I’ll Be Your Mirror (Scepter take used on final album)
9. The Black Angel’s Death Song (Scepter take Used on final album)
10. European Son (Scepter take appears in edited form on final album)
11. Get It On Time(?)
12. Unknown (Possibly “I’ll Keep it with Mine”)

[Haight Trashbury]

On the VU&N Super Deluxe we have new stereo mixes of the Scepter Heroin and European Son. Guess I'm Falling in Love is a WL/WH session outtake and has been mixed twice since the '80s. So at least some of the multitracks must survive.

I don't think we've any evidence that Get It on Time was recorded for the first album. It was registered with publishers around that time, but Norman Dolph has no recollection of it, and it doesn't seem to be on any documentation, let alone exist as a recording. Love to be proven wrong though.

As I mentioned before on this thread, the existence of twelve tape masters in April 1966 seems to bring up the possibility of a studio recording of “Get it On Time,” since it shows that the band was recording more than just Banana Album songs. Then again, there’s an equal (if not greater) possibility that they recorded something else instead (i.e. “It Was a Pleasure Then”).

[simonm]

...their contract with Verve states that they sold the tapes for twelve Scepter-recorded songs to the label, even though the Banana Album only included ten.
/quote]
If this is the sole basis of your assumption that there were two more tracks is based on that contract, your argument is weak. The contract was with MGM, not Verve, signed in May 1966, long before the LP was finished, and the contract actually specifies 'a minimum of 6 45 rpm records or equivalent'.
You may say, well then, there must have been 12 tracks cuz the contract required that, but where is the documentation? Have these tracks ever been mentioned? There have been numerous opportunities to put these tracks out, and as Mark pointed out new mixes were produced from the multi-track tapes for the 45th anniv boxes of both VU&N and WL/WH. There is no reason why UMG would give mult-track tapes away, to Cale or anyone else. They are valuable assets of an international media conglomerate ffs.

[simonm]

Hi HA - i just wanted to clarify that I'm not just trying to trash you, I'm pointing out some inconsistencies with what you think is going on. You've assumed that the contract was for the completed album, but it was for the band to record an album or six 45s. It happened that some of those sides had already been recorded by Dolph.

So, it may now be apparent that I have a xerox of the contract, I promised not to post it online a long time ago and I'm keeping that promise. It's a standard MGM Records contract, with the names and few other bits typed in.

It starts with 'we hereby engage you to render such services as we may require in the production of phonograph records...' and covers May 2 1966 to May 1 1967.

It goes on 'A minimum of six 45 rpm record sides or their equivalent shall be recorded during the term hereof...'

[Haight Trashbury]

Hi HA - i just wanted to clarify that I'm not just trying to trash you, I'm pointing out some inconsistencies with what you think is going on. You've assumed that the contract was for the completed album, but it was for the band to record an album or six 45s. It happened that some of those sides had already been recorded by Dolph.

So, it may now be apparent that I have a xerox of the contract, I promised not to post it online a long time ago and I'm keeping that promise. It's a standard MGM Records contract, with the names and few other bits typed in.

It starts with 'we hereby engage you to render such services as we may require in the production of phonograph records...' and covers May 2 1966 to May 1 1967.

It goes on 'A minimum of six 45 rpm record sides or their equivalent shall be recorded during the term hereof...'

Lol. My bad. Ritchie Unterberger said on his site that the songs were recorded first and THEN sold to the label. Andy Warhol also said that he had the band record all of their music BEFORE they signed to MGM in order to prevent executive meddling. What probably happened was that the label EXPECTED them to record their twelve songs after they signed (hence the wording of the contract), only for the Velvets to reveal that they already completed the necessary music one month prior. That’s the conclusion that best fits the historical record.

[simonm]

hmmm - i checked Unterberger's book and he says there were 2 contracts, one for buying 12 tracks recorded by Dolph 'for release', and another for the 45s to be recorded. but the story is jumbled, it's only a week after the acetate was cut, and they sign with MGM, after being rejected by Columbia? Nobody knows how much Tom Wilson was involved, he is head of east coast A+R but he doesn't sign the contracts. But going back to the 12 tracks RU says there could be second takes of some of the songs. He says that the Joe Harvard book says that they recorded + mixed over 4 days between 18 -23 April, which is quite a long time.