Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

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cubguy23
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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by cubguy23 » 11 Apr 2020 22:29

iaredatsun wrote:
11 Apr 2020 22:27
cubguy23 wrote:
11 Apr 2020 21:02



I seem to remember an interview Lou did with Mick Rock around the time of the Transformer Photo Book was released in which he mentioned Rachel. I believe he referred to her as a transvestite or transsexual. But I haven't been able to find the interview/article. But other than that I think it's safe to assume Lou didn't or wouldn't mention Rachel in the press.
There are many photos. He mentions her in a song. And she's on Sally Can't Dance cover. And I think another album cover. somewhere Was it CIB? Not really a secret. But I'm not sure he ever really talks about his partners in interviews at all. Who does?
I meant like after their break-up. But yea tru who would wanna talk about ex partners. Only thing to me is that maybe Lou specifically didn't wanna talk about Rachel cuz he took on a "straight" image and didn't wanna bring up that part of his life but who knos

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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by Mark » 12 Apr 2020 11:53

iaredatsun wrote:
11 Apr 2020 19:03
However it was reported that Rita died in 1991. So, maybe Reed was under that impression too. We don't know when the real date was found out, because Rita was living isolated from that crowd, in New Jersey.
Was such a thing actually reported though? Or did people writing about Magic & Loss simply assume that it must have been referring to Rotten Rita, and keep repeating the same error till it became gospel?
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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by Mark » 12 Apr 2020 13:23

iaredatsun wrote:
11 Apr 2020 19:45
I think a large hole in this theory is that the album was explicitly dedicated “to Doc and especially to Rita”. Reed was never secretive about Rachel, so I think he would have openly used her name, if the album was partly about her or dedicated to her. I know that MJG says he never wanted to speak about Rachel again, but I reckon if he had he would have used her name, not Rita.
I think there are any number of reasons why Lou, in 1992, would be ambivalent about saying anything public about Rachel. He'd just spent a decade or more putting clear blue water between himself and that period of his life. I can totally see why he may not have wanted to make blatant reference to the speedfreak, drink sodden, sexually ambiguous Bad Old Lou and open himself up to a whole load of probing questions about those days from music journos.
Also, why are we assuming that both people in the dedication had died before the album was written?
Two quotes from Lou in the Bockris biography:

"Within a short period, two of the most important people in my life died from cancer, so the piece is about friendship and how it does transform things. These were people who were inspiring me right through till the last minute."

"It's inspiring to see how a real man and a real woman face death. I could visit Doc while he was going through these extreme medical processes, and I still felt great when I was around him. Both of them made jokes straight through."

So things we know:

1) the album is inspired by two people who died.
2) the people were a man and a woman.
3) they're people who he remained in some degree of contact with till the end.

So it's not about Rita Teel's husband. Did Rita herself also die in this timeframe?

Of course we don't know for certain Rachel's cause of death, although everything points to it being AIDS rather than cancer. So that doesn't fit - although again, this could have been Lou putting up a smokescreen.
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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by iaredatsun » 12 Apr 2020 14:17

cubguy23 wrote:
11 Apr 2020 22:29


I meant like after their break-up. But yea tru who would wanna talk about ex partners. Only thing to me is that maybe Lou specifically didn't wanna talk about Rachel cuz he took on a "straight" image and didn't wanna bring up that part of his life but who knos
'cuz he took on a "straight" image'

As far as taking on a "straight" image, we could easily argue the inverse of this description of what Reed did. And if you read any of the Reed bios, you could see it from that angle. But, I'm afraid that I don't really see Lou Reed's personal life as a gender or sexual politics matter.
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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by iaredatsun » 12 Apr 2020 14:23

Mark wrote:
12 Apr 2020 11:53
iaredatsun wrote:
11 Apr 2020 19:03
However it was reported that Rita died in 1991. So, maybe Reed was under that impression too. We don't know when the real date was found out, because Rita was living isolated from that crowd, in New Jersey.
Was such a thing actually reported though? Or did people writing about Magic & Loss simply assume that it must have been referring to Rotten Rita, and keep repeating the same error till it became gospel?
No. I mean that the death itself was 'reported', not what Reed did on the album. Somehow, it erroneously became 'known' that Rotten Rita/Kenneth Rapp died in 1991.
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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by iaredatsun » 12 Apr 2020 14:51

Mark wrote:
12 Apr 2020 13:23

I think there are any number of reasons why Lou, in 1992, would be ambivalent about saying anything public about Rachel. He'd just spent a decade or more putting clear blue water between himself and that period of his life. I can totally see why he may not have wanted to make blatant reference to the speedfreak, drink sodden, sexually ambiguous Bad Old Lou and open himself up to a whole load of probing questions about those days from music journos.
Well, he never spoke much about any of his many partners in public, as far as I can tell. So I don't think we can read anything specific into it vis-a-vis Rachel . Yes, he may have been trying to distance himself from the 70s Lou image, because it had been flung back in his face so many times during that period. Who wouldn't want to be taken seriously at some stage in their lives?
Mark wrote:
12 Apr 2020 13:23
Also, why are we assuming that both people in the dedication had died before the album was written?
Two quotes from Lou in the Bockris biography:

"Within a short period, two of the most important people in my life died from cancer, so the piece is about friendship and how it does transform things. These were people who were inspiring me right through till the last minute."

"It's inspiring to see how a real man and a real woman face death. I could visit Doc while he was going through these extreme medical processes, and I still felt great when I was around him. Both of them made jokes straight through."
I hadn't read the Bockris. But you are right it says two people Pomus and Rita – both of whom who apparently died back then, as the being an inspiration behind the album.

Mark wrote:
12 Apr 2020 13:23
So things we know:

1) the album is inspired by two people who died.
2) the people were a man and a woman.
3) they're people who he remained in some degree of contact with till the end.

So it's not about Rita Teel's husband. Did Rita herself also die in this timeframe?

Of course we don't know for certain Rachel's cause of death, although everything points to it being AIDS rather than cancer. So that doesn't fit - although again, this could have been Lou putting up a smokescreen.
1. yes the book makes it clear.
2. yes.
3. yes.

>So it's not about Rita Teel's husband. Did Rita herself also die in this timeframe?

I didn't mean to suggest it was about Teel's husband – that was just context for bringing up Rita Teel, and the fact he wrote a song inspired by her. Did Rita die at around that point? We do not know.

“so the piece is about friendship and how does it transform things. These were people who were inspiring me right through to the last minute. These were people I was lucky to have known all the way through.” Lou Reed in Bockris.

I think the dedication to the two people is misleading. The album is 'about' friendship, not specifically about a person or persons. The friendships inspired the songs on album.
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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by lurid » 12 Apr 2020 15:42

Lou was quoted in the Press Kit for M&L:

"Over the last year in particular there were some friends of mine that I lost. And the experience of it and the inspiration that these friends gave me was the reason that I wrote the album."

And talking about "Cremation":
"The song "Cremation" was directly inspired by my friend being cremated (laughter)."

Was Doc Pomus cremated?

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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by lurid » 12 Apr 2020 15:48

Looking at contemporary press cuttings, Lou often talks about Doc Pomus, but never mentions "Rita" in any that I have seen.

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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by marknaveh » 12 Apr 2020 20:42

I have a Q magazine interview from 1992 in which Lou is asked who the record is about. He mentions Doc Pomus and then says "the other person's name is Rita but the name wouldn't mean anything to you" and then abruptly changes the subject to ask the interviewer if he had heard the album on CD or cassette. He definitely didn't want to talk about her.

I always thought the song Dreamin' was a beautiful portrayal of his relationship with Rita:
"If I close my eyes I can smell your perfume you look and say "Hi babe""
"You were always laughing but you never laughed at me"
"They say in the end the pain was so bad that you were screaming
Now you were no saint but you deserved better than that"
"If I try hard and concentrate I can hear your voice saying, "Who better than you""

If the song is to be taken at face value they were obviously very close. I never thought that Rita might be Rachel, but I think it's not completely out of the realms of possibility.

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Re: Magic and Loss is about Rachel, isn't it?

Post by bleach » 12 Apr 2020 21:12

marknaveh wrote:
12 Apr 2020 20:42
If the song is to be taken at face value they were obviously very close. I never thought that Rita might be Rachel, but I think it's not completely out of the realms of possibility.
If you look at that period 90-93, there were quite a few situations that Lou explored which were quite surprising - working with Cale again on Drella and facing the ghosts of his troublesome relationship with Warhol, Cale and the Factory characters. Then reforming the VU and going on tour with them. Certainly Lou around this time was willing to think about, write and explore his past 'lives' some of which must have been uncomfortable and unpleasant for him, even after the passing of quite a few years.

In that sense of reflection during the early 90s i don't think its impossible that Rita could possibly be Rachel in some part. I think it's more likely that Rita is quite a few friends from Lou's past merged together though.

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