Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

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Kill Mick
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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by Kill Mick » 27 Sep 2020 09:16

Thanks guys, got it now.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the possibility that this actually is a July 68 session with Cale. We know from a host of sources that they played a good portion of the 3rd album tracks with him, including most if not all of the ones on this session. Also, whoever sequenced the Lou Reed Archive must think it dates from July, as it is placed before the 13 Nov 3rd album session - if they thought it was recorded on 4 Dec surely they would have placed it after that? The way the 'date' of 4 Dec is written - XII 4/68 is really weird as well - although if it isn't a date I don't know what it is!

My view is this session has one specific date of 5 July 68 and one possible date of 4 Dec 68, which may actually be something else entirely. I may be being wildly optimistic but I still think this could definitely be a 3rd album session with Cale. Just hope we get to find out for definite one day by hearing it...
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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by alfredovu » 27 Sep 2020 17:35

I can tell you “ Here Come The Waves” aka Ocean is real. I have seen a picture of the box of the TTG Master Tape. Dated 5.28.68 3:20 and Lead Guitar, Drums, Rhythm and Bass.
As said before the take had another song “It’s Gonna Rain Tomorrow “ 3:05 with No Drums 12 String Guitar, 6 String Guitar and Bass

Both without Vocal track

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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by Kill Mick » 27 Sep 2020 19:59

alfredovu wrote:
27 Sep 2020 17:35
I can tell you “ Here Come The Waves” aka Ocean is real. I have seen a picture of the box of the TTG Master Tape. Dated 5.28.68 3:20 and Lead Guitar, Drums, Rhythm and Bass.
As said before the take had another song “It’s Gonna Rain Tomorrow “ 3:05 with No Drums 12 String Guitar, 6 String Guitar and Bass

Both without Vocal track
Interesting that this was the day before the Mr Rain session, also at TTG - I guess they booked in for at least a couple of days to do some recording. May also explain why Cale was happy to come back and play viola on Ocean 2 years later, having been involved in it early on.

Alfredo, what's you view on the July 68 session - have you heard or seen anything that would confirm it exists and is the right date?
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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by Mark » 27 Sep 2020 20:11

alfredovu wrote:
27 Sep 2020 17:35
I can tell you “ Here Come The Waves” aka Ocean is real. I have seen a picture of the box of the TTG Master Tape. Dated 5.28.68 3:20 and Lead Guitar, Drums, Rhythm and Bass.
As said before the take had another song “It’s Gonna Rain Tomorrow “ 3:05 with No Drums 12 String Guitar, 6 String Guitar and Bass

Both without Vocal track
That's pretty exciting. I know it'd kind of be cheating, but I wonder if they could fly in the vocals from one of the later versions of Ocean to sort of 'complete' that version.

Strange that there's no organ or viola - would have imagined those were key parts of a Cale-era Ocean.
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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by hkmartin » 27 Sep 2020 21:07

There is an tape in the archives called "Lou Songs [Velvet Underground Demos] circa 1967-1968". This is definitely Cale era, and it includes Ocean.
Lou Songs [Velvet Underground Demos] circa 1967-1968
Side A
Beginning To See The Light 1
Beginning To See The Light 2
[Song Idea]
[Guitar Idea (Ocean)]
[Guitar Idea 1]
[Guitar Idea 2]
[Guitar Idea 3]
[Guitar Idea 4]
Side B
Ocean
[Jam with John Cale]
Here are my notes, which I posted back in April last year. Sorry my notes are so scant, but there was a lot to listen to that day!:
I listed to the two versions of Beginning to see the Light. Both were acoustic demos with Lou on guitar. The first one was a bit folksy, and the second a little bit harder. I didn’t listen to all the rest on the first side.
The other side had an acoustic version of Ocean, which somehow sounded more dark than the versions I know. I listened to a little bit of the jam, which was interesting. Lou on guitar and Cale on viola.

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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by alfredovu » 28 Sep 2020 07:53

Kill Mick wrote:
27 Sep 2020 19:59
alfredovu wrote:
27 Sep 2020 17:35
I can tell you “ Here Come The Waves” aka Ocean is real. I have seen a picture of the box of the TTG Master Tape. Dated 5.28.68 3:20 and Lead Guitar, Drums, Rhythm and Bass.
As said before the take had another song “It’s Gonna Rain Tomorrow “ 3:05 with No Drums 12 String Guitar, 6 String Guitar and Bass

Both without Vocal track
Interesting that this was the day before the Mr Rain session, also at TTG - I guess they booked in for at least a couple of days to do some recording. May also explain why Cale was happy to come back and play viola on Ocean 2 years later, having been involved in it early on.

Alfredo, what's you view on the July 68 session - have you heard or seen anything that would confirm it exists and is the right date?

Well , difficult. Strange they used XII as December, but it could be possible. We know that on Dec 19, 1969 they did some additional work on Mr. Moonlight (Murder Mistery) and Candy Says, as you can see in the Tape reproduced in Pag 232- “ I Met Myself in a Dream... This is The Story of the Third Album”, but the other songs mentioned in the Reed Archive went into the LP as recorded during the November sessions.


They were in California in July, so knowing they would be recording the 3rd Album soon it makes sense to book some Studio time while they were there, as they did in May 28&29.... but this is my speculation i have not proof on that. Just guessing and hoping for a July 1968 recording with Cale.

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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by peppergomez » 28 Sep 2020 21:19

I'd love to hear more '68 work with Cale. IMO that was when they were at their height musically and it's a damn shame there is so little of it documented.

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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by Kill Mick » 29 Sep 2020 08:19

The more I look at this the more convinced I become that the date of 5 July 68 is right. If you look at the format for entries in the Lou archive the bit written in bold appears to be some sort of title while the dates are always written in normal font after that. I know XII - 4/68 [Velvet Underground] is a weird title but assuming it follows the pattern of all the other listings it seems to me the date is 5 July. I don't see why we would assume this one was wrong when all the other dates seem reasonable.

Do we know where the titles and dates come from? Are they written on tape boxes?
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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by searchin4mymainline » 29 Sep 2020 09:05

iaredatsun wrote:
26 Sep 2020 22:26
I think the most convincing thing is the similarity between the songs on the 'july 68' tape and the other 3rd album sessions tape in the LR archive. Yes. I think you are right. At least I can now stop hoping for more Cale recordings!
Yes. If you look at it in the full context of what's listed here, it seems less likely that it represents a separate recording session:

The Velvet Underground [1969 Album]
560624
XII - 4/68 [Velvet Underground] 1968 July 5
Jesus
Pale Blue Eyes
Beginning To See The Light
Story Of My Life
If You Close the Door [After Hours]

560625
Velvet Underground - Mono Rough 1968 November 13
Jesus
Beginning To See The Light
I'm Set Free
If You Close The Door [After Hours]

b. 1 f. 5
Velvet Underground - Mono Rough Tracklist 1968 November 13
Track list from audio reel 560625.

560626
Velvet Underground - Some Kinda Love; Story of My Life; Murder Mystery 1968
560627
Velvet Underground - Stereo 1968
Beginning To See The Light
I'm Set Free
That's The Story Of My Life
The Murder Mystery
After Hours

560628
Side II - Final Moe Feb 24, Except for Murder Mystery [Velvet Underground] 1968-1969
Beginning To See The Light
I'm Set Free
That's The Story Of My Life
After Hours

560629
The Velvet Underground circa 1968-1969
[1K Tone]
Beginning To See The Light
I'm Set Free
That's The Story Of My Life
The Murder Mystery
After Hours

Also the archive notes for this Studio Recordings section say: "The Studio recordings comprise over 900 recordings of material intended for official album release... Much of Reed's catalog is represented in various formats, ranging from rough mixes to final masters of albums, singles, and music videos... The studio recordings are arranged chronologically by album or project. Tracklists transcribed from the original media are included when available...
The earliest recordings are of the Velvet Underground, which include copies of acetates originating from Moe Tucker, and audio recordings from 1968 to 1970 sessions for The Velvet Underground and Loaded. These recordings include studio outtakes, rough and alternate mixes, and mono and stereo mixes."

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Re: Richie Unterberger on the making of White Light/White Heat*

Post by iaredatsun » 29 Sep 2020 12:42

searchin4mymainline wrote:
29 Sep 2020 09:05
iaredatsun wrote:
26 Sep 2020 22:26
I think the most convincing thing is the similarity between the songs on the 'july 68' tape and the other 3rd album sessions tape in the LR archive. Yes. I think you are right. At least I can now stop hoping for more Cale recordings!
Yes. If you look at it in the full context of what's listed here, it seems less likely that it represents a separate recording session:

The Velvet Underground [1969 Album]
560624
XII - 4/68 [Velvet Underground] 1968 July 5
Jesus
Pale Blue Eyes
Beginning To See The Light
Story Of My Life
If You Close the Door [After Hours]

560625
Velvet Underground - Mono Rough 1968 November 13
Jesus
Beginning To See The Light
I'm Set Free
If You Close The Door [After Hours]
Yes that's what i was saying. Especially the one following it that has the same provisional title for After Hours.
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