The Velvet Forum

On the Stooges Forum, with the recent release of the Raw Power "Bowie Mix" remaster, the major discussion going on right now is about the differences between the various circulating recordings of that album. This got me to thinking...how different are the various VU releases from each other? Has anyone ever tried to figure out which version of each LP is the "best?"

I never realized there could be such heated debate over Raw Power, until of course I started following the threads over on stoogesforum.freeforumboard.net, so I wonder if that type of discussion can heat up here. Makes for good reading!

I lost kind track of the various Raw Power mixes... The Iggy mix, the Bowie mix and some remasters in between... I can imagine that the Stoogeheads go crazy over that topic.
And it would be interesting to find that out about the VU too.

Did anyone ever compile a list of the various releases/pressings/masterings/editions?
If not it would be interesting to create such a list here together.

Something that has puzzled me is where the 'alternate mix' of the third album tracks on the 'Walk With' box set come from. They don't seem to correspond with any of the mixes on the 'Ultimate Stereo' set which seems to be pretty exhaustive. I've always assumed that the 'WW' guys used the Afterhours Tapes as their source, these have the closet mix but it doesn't sound like any of the closet mixes I've heard, specially 'What Goes On' - there's a mistake on the rythm guitar that can't be heard on any other version, and 'Afterhours' has a bass clearly audible.

As for 'Raw Power' I like the Bowie mix on the original U.K. issue, a bit thin sounding maybe but I like the way reverb lifts the guitars above the chaos. I have the bootleg Iggy mixes from the 80's and these seem very flat and dull by comparison. I haven't heard later Ig mixes.

Well, starting with the VU&N LP, how many different mixes are available out there? Is the Peel Slowly and See disc any different than the previously-released CD? I rarely listen to my PSS set, mainly because I bought it used and the discs are scratched to hell.

Well, it is good to start somewhere...

Off the top of my head there was:

the first CD issue (with the alternate single voice version of ATP)
some mono mixes in the WGO box
the MFSL release
the remaster of the PSAS box
and the mono/stereo of the 2 CD deluxe edition

apart from the original mono and stereo vinyl release (US and UK)
I remember a 5 LP vinyl box set of the 80s
but don't know how many different vinyl releases there have been before and after...

I'd have to check the liner notes, maybe track times, if there are any more details about different mixes/masterings.

At the moment I don't have an overview which bootleg releases, besides Ultimate Stereo/Mono may contain VU&N mixes.

The first VU&N CD is absolutely terrible.

A quick digression about my listening history. For the first two weeks of my existence of a mad VU fan (during which I bought all their records and a number of bootlegs), the copy of VU&N I had was the CD version that came out in the mid 80's. This was the first thing I ever heard, and I loved it. When I had to give it back to my sister, she gave me a vinyl copy of the Australian 'Rock Legends' pressing, which became my copy of the album for the next few years, along with a (dubbed) cassette of the Mono album, until the PS&S box came out. I was happy with that until last year, when I got the MFSL version, which is in my opinion the best sounding stereo version ever.

Where it gets funny is that I'd built up a bit of a sentimental feeling for the original CD (my sister's copy somehow got lost over the years), and I decided to try to get one on ebay, which I did (luckily not for much). I gave it a listen, thinking that all of those people who had trashed it years earlier were being too precious.

Well whaddya know, it sucked. A lot of side 1 is OK, but Run, Run, Run sounds terrible - by which I mean, it sounds like it's a bad performance. It's virtually unlistenable more than once. Heroin sounds OK, but then There She Goes Again is also unlistenable - having that 'early CD' sound which makes everything sound tinny and indistict.

So out of all the versions that I have on vinyl, cassette, CD, here's how I would rate the ones that are noticably different from best to worst:

1. Original mono lp (yellow label)
2. MFSL stereo CD
3. UK Mono LP (black label)
4. Original Stereo LP (US, blue label)
5. Peel Slowly and See box
6. Any early seventies stereo versions (Australian, US, UK)
7. What Goes On mono cuts
8. A BIG DAMN GAP
9. 'Made in W Germany' CD

Comments: 1. Pounding drums, a great mix of voice/instruments, viola sounds more menacing than on any other version I've heard.
2. A couple of songs are slightly remixed (noticably WFTM), but generally packs lots of punch.
3. Not as wild as 1. but still very good sound.
4. I think some of this is because the vinyl itself LOOKS so good, but hearing it as it was heard at the time is an experience that goes beyond normal ideas of 'sound quality'.
5. A fantastic, straight ahead stereo version.
6. I could never tell the difference between these - some were higher quality vinyl, but that's pretty much it.
7. A pity they did the usual Raven records job of getting the worst sounding masters possible.
9. Crap.
Strangely, I still haven't gotten around to getting the Deluxe mono/stereo version.

David, that's exactly the type of info I was looking for. Having my second child meant I needed to pack up the turntable for a few years, so it looks like I should be on the lookout for the MFSL release. I live in a house with my wife, a 6 year old, and an 18 month old...not much time to sit and listen to music. I rely on these forums to help me decide which versions are tastier than others. I think the vinyl releases will ALWAYS sound better than the CDs, so pushing those to the side, MFSL is apparently the way you'd go. I really would like your take on the Deluxe Remaster, which I find simply wonderful.

I would like to ask a pointed comment about your "remix" comment on the MFSL. What exactly do you find different (better or worse?) about IWFTM? Like many of us here, it's my favorite tune off the album...so it makes me nervous that it may sound a little different than it was intended.

On a side note, I know what you mean about hunting down a "mistake" on ePay. I dumped my old Stooges 1988 "Raw Power" Columbia CD because I was so anxious to get Iggy's remaster...what a fucking mistake! I immediately hunted down another 1988 Columbia release for around $15. That said, my Deluxe Edition Raw Power "Bowie Mix" box should arrive in a week or so! And thankfully the BURP that kicks off Raw Power is BACK!! Here's the YouTube vid of the Raw Power Deluxe Edition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gGbsfCKxfQ. Here is what Ron Asheton said about Iggy's remaster:

Don Fleming goes, "You know what? When Iggy's Raw Power mix comes out, I'll bet you're gonna go -- we always used to say how bad the original David Bowie mix of Raw Power was -- Fleming's going, "When you hear Iggy's mix, I guarantee you're gonna say, 'Man, remember that great mix that David Bowie did?'" So I heard it, I got the advance copy from his manager, and listened to it. Then I called Fleming and I'm going, "Gee, Don, I just listened to Iggy's mix of Raw Power. Man, I sure loved that old David Bowie mix. Was it ever great."...Basically, all that Iggy did was take all the smoothness and all the effects off James [Williamson]'s guitar, so his leads sound really abrupt and stilty and almost clumsy, and he just put back every single grunt, groan, and word he ever said on the whole fuckin' soundtrack. He just totally restored everything that was cut out of him in the first mix, and I thought, Damn, I really did like the old mix better.

On another side note, there are some guys on Demonoid really into transferring their vinyl collections to digital. Their work on the Rolling Stones LPs has been superb, so hopefully a VU LP will show up there! Simply check this info for a Beggars Banquet (original UK release) transfer:

Turntable: VPI Scoutmaster Signature Plus
Cartridge: Audio-Technica AT33PTG
Preamp: Pro-Ject Tubebox
Interconnects: Blue Jean Cables
Soundcard: E-MU 0202 USB (Recorded at 192khz)
Signal Chain: Turntable > Phono Preamp > Soundcard Izotope RX Advanced for SRC and Dither to 44.1khz
Click Repair on very light =< 10

MJG196 wrote:I would like to ask a pointed comment about your "remix" comment on the MFSL. What exactly do you find different (better or worse?) about IWFTM? Like many of us here, it's my favorite tune off the album...so it makes me nervous that it may sound a little different than it was intended.

I don't know if I'm hallucinating this, and I'm listening to it right now on ipod (but from a WAV, not MP3), and it sounds less pronounced than it did the first few times I listened, but the piano at the beginning sounds like it slowly fades up over the intro and first verse. Meaning, it starts quiet, and by the end of the first verse, it's as loud as usual. This is also one of my favourite songs on the album, and I noticed it straight away, but I don't know if it's a remix done for the MFSL folk, or whether that's what some original stereo versions would have sounded like if they were completely clean. It is definitely different to the wonderful original mono, though. I'm almost tempted to sub in the PS&S version on my ipod, but haven't decided to yet. Every other song sounds absolutely stunning though, including things like Femme Fatale with just the right amount of distortion, and that 'kick' at the very beginning of Venus In Furs being exactly how it's always been in your mind.

Another nice thing about the MFSL version is it has the 'Alternate single voiced version' of ATP, so you can get that with good sound. A down side is the price - it usually sells for over $100, so you'll have to decide whether it's worth that much to you. (Of course, we all know the answer).

On a side note, I know what you mean about hunting down a "mistake" on ePay. I dumped my old Stooges 1988 "Raw Power" Columbia CD because I was so anxious to get Iggy's remaster...what a fucking mistake!

I did exactly the same thing with RP - gave the original CD to a girlfriend (now ex-) and it's gone for good now. Not that I really miss it - that was one ugly CD, from general cover design to sound, but Iggy's remix is hard to listen to. What we were all after was a clean version of the 'Rough Power' tapes from that radio broadcast - I wonder whatever happened to the original cassette of that?

Now I have a question for everyone else - WL/WH MFSL: Is it worth the $200 it goes for, up against my two copies - the PS&S version, and an original blue label copy.

I doubt it will beat the blue label. Too bad you don't use p2p, because there is a copy up at Demonoid, you could check for the sound.

[quote="DavidHNow I have a question for everyone else - WL/WH MFSL: Is it worth the $200 it goes for, up against my two copies - the PS&S version, and an original blue label copy.[/quote]

I have both MFSL CDs and WLWH is the best CD version that I've heard, it's as good as the VU & Nico disk. I got mine from ebay ?25 each, I had no idea they were fetching such high prices now. Before I bought the actual disks, I recieved copies of both in SHN format as part of a vine. I wonder if I still have those?

I must say that I never noticed the difference in WFTM, but on the MFSL 'I'll Be Your Mirror' is replaced with the mono mix.