WHITE LIGHT / WHITE HEAT DELUXE 45th ANNIVERSARY EDITION

[jimjim]

Sure, they could have dug a bit deeper into the vaults - but what we have here isn't too shabby at all. Looking forward to hearing the "alternate take" of I Heard Her Call My Name (if indeed it is different from the Sundazed single), the extra Gymnaisum bits, the much-vaunted Cale Beginning..., the new mixes of the Another VU tracks, and of course what they've managed to do to the sound of the thing.

But 'new mixes' should never been seen as a replacement for genuine unreleased material. The logic here is we're supposed to shell out $100 for a nice book, 2 tracks, some new unbooted live stuff and remixes of stuff we already have? Nein danke.

(Not a dig at you...btw.... )

[sb3344]

Great to have some new stuff, but I agree. For the assumed price, I would prefer to have more all new material. Another remnant of the "sell you what you've already got, plus a bit more, mentality." I put it in the download only category... and wonder how much more there is for which I would have been happy to pay (and which will find its way onto the 50th anniversary release).

[iaredatsun]

But 'new mixes' should never been seen as a replacement for genuine unreleased material. The logic here is we're supposed to shell out $100 for a nice book, 2 tracks, some new unbooted live stuff and remixes of stuff we already have? Nein danke.

jimjim, no offense but I really cannot agree. It's hard to think what they could have done apart from what we have here. They cannot invent unreleased tracks. And if there was enough material they could have easily added another CD.

Also on a positive note, they have at last upgraded WLWH in stereo and released mono to the same high standard as they did with VU&N. They have presented what I guess will much improved versions of all the important Cale materials they 'threw away' on those two poorly conceived comps of the 80s. (sorry, UMG). We now get the famous IHHCMN alt. version which we have really needed and the infamous BTSTL which we also needed, plus the full 30th April tape.

Sweet Sister Ray? Maybe they don't consider it up to a standard that they want to keep to. Or they just don't have the tape or the license to use it. Either way, personally, I can live without it.

Only thing really missing ? The live version of Walk and Talk It.

I don't really think these sets should be 'catch alls'. That's what Peel Slowly was ? and that was a pretty awful mashup of a comp with tons of soso material. I never play it. I want to see high quality set that captures the second half and end of the Cale era and that does it all the justice it deserves, quality wise. This is it and I think a few extra unfinished studio odds and ends (if they exist) would not really add to it, imo.

Of course some people wont want to or be able to shell out for mainly a sonic upgrade. But hope you can get the LP version.

[jimjim]

But 'new mixes' should never been seen as a replacement for genuine unreleased material. The logic here is we're supposed to shell out $100 for a nice book, 2 tracks, some new unbooted live stuff and remixes of stuff we already have? Nein danke.

jimjim, no offense but I really cannot agree. It's hard to think what they could have done apart from what we have here. They cannot invent unreleased tracks. And if there was enough material they could have easily added another CD.

Also on a positive note, they have at last upgraded WLWH in stereo and released mono to the same high standard as they did with VU&N. They have presented what I guess will much improved versions of all the important Cale materials they 'threw away' on those two poorly conceived comps of the 80s. (sorry, UMG). We now get the famous IHHCMN alt. version which we have really needed and the infamous BTSTL which we also needed, plus the full 30th April tape.

Sweet Sister Ray? Maybe they don't consider it up to a standard that they want to keep to. Or they just don't have the tape or the license to use it. Either way, personally, I can live without it.

Only thing really missing ? The live version of Walk and Talk It.

I don't really think these sets should be 'catch alls'. That's what Peel Slowly was ? and that was a pretty awful mashup of a comp with tons of soso material. I never play it. I want to see high quality set that captures the second half and end of the Cale era and that does it all the justice it deserves, quality wise. This is it and I think a few extra unfinished studio odds and ends (if they exist) would not really add to it, imo.

Of course some people wont want to or be able to shell out for mainly a sonic upgrade. But hope you can get the LP version.

Couple of points here:

1. No-one has confirmed from Universal that Side 2 of the mono mix is a fold-down. The consesus has been for a while (since 2005 anyway) that it is. If it is a fake mono mix, it should be excluded. You don't see the majors clamouring to re-issue the 'original' reprocessed stereo mixes of old do you? Why make an exception for fake mono mixes?

2. Agreed re the Ludlow demos..they were only issued on PSAS and nowhere else. So, it makes sense to have them here along with the outtakes of SL & HSCN. Any ideas why not alfredo?

3. As the booted tracks were...erm, booted..I would assume the VU would hold the legal higher ground on this and 'boot the bootleggers'? Why not? Whomever owns the tape illegally taped the band [That's not to say that I'm grateful that he/she did!]. Didn't they do this with WGO and Too Much on PSAS?

4. Yep on Walk It And Talk It..should have been there...unless it's the mysterious track 3??

5. I like the last upgrade of WL/WH...punchy, loud and nicely done. Compared to the 80s CD, a milestone of how to do remastering properly. Knowing current reissues, it might end up being stuck in the 'loudness wars'. Hope not.

6. PSAS was amazing...a really great set. Of course, I had the albums already but the upgrade was great and the extra tracks were amazing. Only downside - the errors in the book.

7. SR Swan Mix? Not considered or too obscure?

8. Of course, all this would have been academic has Cale opened up his archive..he must have other tapes from '67...demos, live stuff etc.

So here's what I would have done (had I access):

Disc 1: Stereo mix + Side 1 of the mono mix. Heard & WLWH single mix, outtakes from sessions discussed already (Hidden Track - WL/WH radio ad)
Disc 2: Ludlow Street demo session, Original mixes of the stray '68 tracks (NOT Guess or Rain 1+2), La Cave April '68 in full
Disc 3: Gymnasium tapes (including WATI, Guess #2 + other unreleased tracks from there) (Hidden track - excerpts from the Music Factory Interview)

Plus the option of a 4th disc if Cale had something new and interesting....

BTW, anyone know what source is being used for the LPs - analog or digital? (please be the former - at least for LP1)

[peppergomez]

Guess I´m falling In Love, the two Mr. Rains and Beginning have been newly remixed this summer. Interesting to note that Guess recording date is Sept 5th and not Dec 5th as informed before, so actually an outtake of the Wl/Wh recording sessions.

Thank-you. Now it makes sense. So Guess the same period as WLWH! I would never have guessed from it's sonic footprint. I love Guess, so looking forward to a new mix.

Alfredo, do you know whether the the instrumental version The Gift has been mixed as stereo?

Agreed. There is no bottom end at all on WL/WH and the drums sound like cardboard. Love the album but it was very shittily recorded IMO. The demo of GIFIL that appears on Another VIew has lots of punch, a bottom end, better sounding drums, and a totally different guitar sound. Sure I guess some of that is due to 80s remastering technology but I seriously doubt it is from the WL/WH sessions due to how much different it's sonic footprint is.

I have always felt that Gary Kellgren and Thom Wilson did VU a disservice in terms of the recording quality on WL/WH. For such aggressive, kick-ass music, it lacks the bottom end and punch needed to make it really hit home. Wilson achieved that in Waiting for the Man and Venus in Furs which he recorded over a year prior. Hell, even the Sceptor Studio cuts (Run Run Run) rock harder than WL/WH in terms of aggressive punch.

[peppergomez]

Why are they describing both Mr Rains as unreleased when they were on Another View?
Is the instrumental live version of The Gift the same as Booker T, which Cale included on an EP and which was on PSAS?

[iaredatsun]

5. I like the last upgrade of WL/WH...punchy, loud and nicely done. Compared to the 80s CD, a milestone of how to do remastering properly. Knowing current reissues, it might end up being stuck in the 'loudness wars'. Hope not.

I think the last remaster might have sacrificed a lot and most people prefer the MFSL version. I think the 80s version might be also better in terms of reproduction even if it is quieter. The last remaster was done at the same time as VU&N and hearing the new version of that album last year was a palpable shock for it's improved sound quality. I'm not just talking about punch but space, depth, subtlety and sense of realism in the instruments.

I hope that there is more to discover in the WLWH recording despite the limitations of the engineering when it was recorded. I think VU&N (and 3rd remaster) shows that the engineer knows what he is doing and is not going to overdo the compressors as in the 'loudness wars' style.

Also this round of remasters seems to be the first time that they have gone back to the original masters as a source for a long time.

[iaredatsun]

Why are they describing both Mr Rains as unreleased when they were on Another View?

ditto, Guess I'm Falling In Love. And I'm not convinced that IHHCMN is actually a different take. The version on the Sundazed single is a different mix of the same take, no?

I think that list must be a current version awaiting revision or proofing. Of course 'new versions' always sound better on the PR front.

[Chris M]

Agreed. There is no bottom end at all on WL/WH and the drums sound like cardboard. Love the album but it was very shittily recorded IMO. The demo of GIFIL that appears on Another View has lots of punch, a bottom end, better sounding drums, and a totally different guitar sound. Sure I guess some of that is due to 80s remastering technology but I seriously doubt it is from the WL/WH sessions due to how much different it's sonic footprint is.

I think the reason Guess I'm Falling In Love sounds so much better is because it largely because it wasn't mixed by Lou Reed in 1967. That and the basic track wasn't obscured by distorted organ and fuzz guitar overdubs. While the drums are much louder in the mix on GIFIL if you compare the sound of Moe's toms they match the LP. If we had the WL/WH multitracks I'm sure the basic tracks would sound similar to GIFIL.

[Briski]

Any thoughts on why Beginning to See the Light wasn't released on VU / Another View? It's a major track and a different version is pretty big news, I'd have thought it would've been pushed front and centre.